Interview with Mr. Joseph Chapman
April 26, 2003
Interviewed by Jean Uzzle
Mr. Chapman attended the Fairview School located near Zuni. Fairview had originally been the Clayton School for whites. His mother, Mrs. Josephine Chapman, was a well-known teacher in the county.
Q: I’m Jean Uzzle and I’m getting ready to interview Mr. Joseph Chapman. What area of Isle Of Wight County did you grow up in?
A: Zuni.
Q: How many sisters or brothers did you have?
A: I had only one brother and he passed away July of 1994, no sisters.
Q: No sisters. So what school did you attend, did he attend the same school that you did?
A. Yes
Q: And what school was that?
A: That was Fairview, known as Fairview School at that time.
Q: Okay. Is there a particular name for that area where Fairview was, accept for Zuni?
A: No, I don’t, we just usually call it the Zuni area.
Q: Okay, what grades were taught at Fairview?
A: One through seven.
Q: How many classrooms where there?
A: Well there were, there was a two rooms there but there was only one used for the blacks. This was formerly a white school out in Fair, known as Clayton high, elementary, (I mean) grammar school. And then when I started, there was a two school right in the end, close area there. The other was Walnut, known as Walnut Grove. And Miss Nettie Whitehurst taught at Walnut Grove. My mother, who was Josephine Johnson-Chapman, taught a Fairview. And in the later years I think I went, I mean a, must but went but a year or a little over or something like that, nearest I can remember. And then they consolidated the two schools and had the one Fairview. They did away with Walnut Grove and those children came over to Isle of Wight. I mean Fairview.
Q: Okay, so the teachers at Fairview were?
A: Were a, Josephine Johnson-Chapman, which was my mother, and Miss Nettie B.Whitehurst.
Q: Okay. So it must have been interesting having your mother to teach you.
A: (Laughs) Yes it was, it was quite interesting. When I started out, I started out I think if I remember correctly, she carried me to school with her the year before I was old enough to attend school. So but when I became old enough the next year, then I entered into a regular school. But a so, I had no choice because nobody at home to keep me so she carried me with her. And I stayed with her a lot.
Q: All right that means you went to school a year earlier then the other kids your age.
A: That’s right.
Q: So, what grades did you attend? Did you go one through seven?
A: One through seven at Fairview.
Q: Okay, Can you remember what year that was?
A: I can’t remember it off hand, just what year that was now. Now I’m 73, I mean 74. (Laughs) I’ll be 75 in May of this coming year, 28th, May 28th this year. And a so, count back from that we can kind of come up with the...
Q: With the year.
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, how did you get to school?
A: Walked.
Q: About how far did you walk?
A: Well, Fairview was about two and a half miles from where I lived.
Q: So that was about five miles a day?
A: Right.
Q: So were their other children walking along with you?
A: Oh yeah, oh yeah, everybody in the community. We had I guess, from my area was a at least about 19 on that road that I ah_______________.
Q: So that was a nice group of people walking.
A: Oh yeah, they came from all angles to the school.
Q: That’s great. So what jobs did you do before and after school? Did you have chores at home to do?
A: Oh yeah, I had many chores. First thing, I had to get up and milk the cow, get the cow, get her milked. Then I had to carry in wood, pull up the water and carry water in. At that time we didn’t have any pumps in the house even, not even hand pumps, just a well outside the yard there. And we had to get water, wash water, water to drink and all those type of things, get wood in for the night, night after before we went to school or when we came back from school.
Q: All right. Now when you got to school, did you have chores to do at school, were there something for you to do when you got at school?
A: Oh yes, we had to get wood mostly in the wintertime. We had to find light wood______________________go out to the edge of the wood and get some light wood or some wood or what ever it was to make, kennel the fire with, cause we had just the one stove, a pot belly stove setting there in the floor. And a lot of time, most the time, lot of time the parents would carry wood, but sometimes that might run out before we got some more. And we’d have to scrape around the woods and get what we could to make a fire with.
Q: All right. Once you got to school and you got your heat going, your fire going. How did you start your day?
A: We started with prayer and bible versus and those types of things and we always, every morning we had prayer.
Q: What do you think about today’s children that go to school and ___________?
A: Well, I’m from the old fashion school. I still believe in prayer, prayer has to play a part in the school. I think that is one mistake the government has made, when they took prayer out of the school. That’s my feeling you know. I think that has played a great part in life, in my life, in opening the school year, a school day with prayer.
Q: Right. What subjects were taught?
A: Well we, well mainly, we had reading, English, arithmetic (and) history. Those were some of the main things that were taught.
Q: Now was there a special textbook or reader book that you liked that kind of stuck with you through life?
A: Well I a, I‘ve always a, I like to read. So reading that was one of the things and English I have a love of that and history. I like history and even today, I try to keep up with history and do a lot of reading. And a, I think that’s a big portion, played a big portion in my life.
Q: So can you remember what the first primer book was like? What was the name of that?
A: I don’t remember the name of it but I know some of the things in it, characters in it, Dick and Jane, Jack and Jill, Jack and the beanstalk I believe it was (Laughs), yeah.
Q: How long was your school day?
A: We a, we started, if I remember correctly, we started at eight o’clock and we were out around three, I think it was, if I remember correctly.
Q: How long was your school year? When did school begin?
A: We got out sometime in May and we started, we started I think around September, if I remember correctly.
Q: Where did you eat lunch and how long did you have for lunch? Can you remember?
A: I don’t remember just how long the time period, but we ate lunch, we carried our lunch because everybody carried their lunch in a little bag, a little lunch bucket pail or whatever, and we would eat right there in the class room. In our seats, everybody was assigned to a different seat.
Q: So if you finished eating lunch before time for the class to begin…?
A: We’d go out to play then, play out for the rest of the lunch period.
Q: How did you know what time to come back in?
A: Well the teacher had a bell she’d ring, ring that bell.
Q: So you knew lunch was over.
A: Knew lunchtime was over, recess was over.
Q: What about recess, did you have recess?
A: Yes, we had recess, but I think a, I know we had one recess. I don’t remember now if we had one in the afternoon, one in the morning, or just how it was now. But I know we had a recess were we’d go out and play ball and such as that. The teacher would come out with us and play.
Q: So what was the games that you all played?
A: Well mainly, it was a baseball; we had a little area there in front of the school. I never forget my teacher, Miss Nettie, was a right good size lady but a, she would always be the pitcher. But she could catch the ball if she caught it in her dress, she would catch it. (Laughing) She hardly ever missed. But she’d always be the pitcher you know and we’d come up and choose sides you know, the girls and boys whatever and mixed in together. We had a nice time
Q: Well, that sounds like fun. And with the teacher participating in the game…
A: Yeah, she participated in it.
Q: How would you describe your classroom? What did your classroom look like?
A: Well, it was just a small area, I guess maybe it seemed like it might have been, possible 20 by 20 or something like that and we had a, the teacher was up at one end of the classroom and the students were in seats facing her.
Q: Can you remember how you were designated as class, you know, how did she teach all, so many classes at one time?
A: Well I think what she did I think she a, I do not really know how they was set up. But each class had a time I think she’d call them up you know, different class from one through seven. But she taught the whole seventh grade now. And she had, I remember she had a black board, and we had to go to the backboard and put our arithmetic up or spelling or sometimes write the words up there. We’d have spelling bees and things of that nature. That was interesting when we had spelling bees. I remember one time we had a spelling bee, there was a girl in my class that, she would beat me every time, I just couldn’t beat her. _Beatrice Greene was her name. I just couldn’t beat her.
Q: How was the classroom heated? I believe you said wood.
A: Yeah wood. Later years the last year they had a little, had some coal that was brought out there. But I was, just that was I think maybe one year before I stopped going. I mean before I graduated from grammar school.
Q: Where was the restroom?
A: Just a little outhouse out in the back, the back of the school by the woods, or something I think it was. Yeah close to the woods
Q: Where did you get your water?
A: Well we had a, at that time I think we had a pump in the back of the school. Yeah that’s were we got our water.
Q: So did you bring the water inside or if you wanted water, you had to go outside and get it?
A: I think most time we had to go outside if I remember correctly, to get our water. We had to go out to the pump cause I remember sometimes we had to prime the pump. I don’t know if you are familiar with those old type pumps we had, they’d lose prime and we had to pour water in it, over it we had to keep some extra water, spare water for that.
Q: Now how would you describe your teacher’s desk?
A: Teacher’s desk?
Q: (yes)
A: Well they was just a, I guess possibly maybe around 5 feet wide or something like that with a, and chair behind it, with a, I think it was a swivel chair she had at that time. Might have been, seems like to me just one plain chair didn’t have swivels on it though when I started. Maybe later years it may have had swivel.
Q: Can you describe your desk that you sat in?
A: Yes, it had a little flat piece in the front of it by about maybe three, two and half feet by 18 inches or something like that wide that sat in the front of you with a little slot on it for your pencil, and a, you could lay your pencil on the top of it there.
Q: So what did you do with your books, did you have somewhere to store your book?
A: Most of the time I think we just put them underneath the seat.
Q: Did she use the chalkboard or blackboard?
A: Yes, she used the chalkboard and we had the eraser there with a little tray on the front of the blackboard.
Q: Now your school supplies, your paper, your pencils and things like that, did your school purchase it or did your parents have to purchase it?
A: Your parents had to purchase the supplies, paper and pencils______.
Q: Now, what about your books. Do you remember how you got your books?
A: Yes, my parents had to buy the books.
Q: Were there any teacher’s aids on the wall, you know like maybe maps or atlas?
A: We had, I think I remember correctly, she had a little globe map there on the table. A little brown world map, world globe I mean. And she may have had, I don’t recall if there was map on the wall or not now, but I know she had…
Q: What about the alphabet?
A: Yeah, we had that on the wall and we’d have to write it.
Q: What about the lighting was it natural light through the windows or was it electric light?
A: Yes, natural light through the windows. And at night, if we had activities or anything at night, we had lamps; we had a lamp on the side of the windows and stuff like that. But was no electricity back in that day.
Q: But it worked, didn’t it?
A: Oh yeah we got by.
Q: Was there a cloakroom or somewhere you hang your coats when you got to school?
A: When we entered into the school from the outside, there was what we called a hall at that time. It was one room in the back and one room on this end and the hall kind of in the front of it, led to our room, the room that was used. Out there they had some nails or hooks or whatever and that’s were we kept our clothes, I mean coats.
Q: What about discipline in school when you were in there, what was discipline like?
A: Well, it was much different from what I understand it is now, cause at the time if you did wrong and did bad enough the teacher would bring you up to the desk and she would either whip you in the hands or in your leg. But from the way I can understand, it’s all together different now. Like in reading and just looking at TVs and all, it’s much different. Which I think has really to my, to my way of thinking, has hurt the overall adults and children coming up in this day and time. I don’t think it’s enough of that core punishment being used.
Q: So you think that’s why kids are the way they are today?
A: I think that plays a big part. The way it’s set up now, the children have the upper hand on the teacher. The teacher just doesn’t have the power to really instruct the child the way it should be, do her job to the fullest.
Q: Do you think that’s why maybe teachers are not dedicated now the way they were then? Do you feel like that is why?
A: Well I think that teachers may be dedicated, but the power is taken from the teachers, they don’t have that power that they had back then. Back then if they teacher whipped the child, if I got a whipping at school, and went home, I could look for another one. Now it’s all together different.
Q: What school experience that you had that you would like to tell me about? Maybe something happened at school or it could have happened at home. Or you would rather not. Sometime some fond memories always stick with us that happened.
A: Well, one memory that stick with me that when I see this class, school mate now, once in a while I run up with her. I remember when we were playing this baseball one day at recess time. And we had what are bats were made out of a piece of old desk that was split. It wasn’t a round bat it was a flat piece of board more or less, this particular girl was at the bat, and she was a hard hitter. She was kind of, what we used to call a tomboyish like, she could hit just like the same as boys. And this girl was standing off to the side and she was a little to close up to her and when she swung at this ball, this bat flipped out her hand and hit this girl right up over above her eye. When I see her now sometimes, I don’t talk to her if she’s in a crowed but I say “well, you still got your mark” cause that mark is still there and will be there______________ But that’s one memory that I have and haven’t forgot, I remember that just if it happened yesterday.
Q: All right, is there anything else?
A: No
Q: Something about growing up at home, some experience you had that you’d like to tell us about? You did tell me about you mother taking you to school a little early. What was that like?
A: Yeah, well back then; I didn’t have any choice, so it was kind of a bad hard chore for me, so that’s why I had to go through with it. I guess maybe I kind of enjoyed it then cause she would, one thing, when I first started I think, she would take me, I had an aunt that lived across form the school and she would carry over there and leave me with her. So that a, I was thrilled to go over there with my aunt cause I knew I was going to get something good to eat then cause that’s where the goodies were always.
Q: So going early and then when time for you to go it was like you had the upper hand on the other children.
A: Oh yeah, yeah that’s true, that’s true. I think to a certain extent that helped me, gave me a head start.
Q: Yeah cause some children are frightened that first day, so you had the upper hand there.
A: Yeah, that’s true
Q: Just thinking of the kids of today, do you have anything that you would like to say to them, to inspire them, to really take hold and learn everything they can learn?
A: Yes, well I would like to say to them, for one thing to take advantage of everything that is offered to them because I know in so many cases I see that children look like they don’t have an interest. But still they have these things that are put before them but they don’t take advantage of. But in my, when I came along, I didn’t have these opportunities that they have now. And I had to walk these distances, when I went to high school I had to walk three miles then to catch the bus to get what little education I got during high school. But now, the children have the bus coming right by the gates and by the door and some of them you know, don’t take the interest that they should, I feel like. I think they should take more initiative to grasp everything that is offered to them. That’s how I feel about that.
Q: Well that’s good. I’ve enjoyed the interview with you? Is there anything else you’d like to tell me? How did playing baseball at school help you in playing in a baseball career?
A: Well, it helped me quite a bit because I had played baseball from the time I was about 12 years old until I was in my 40’s. We had a, my brother and I, we opened a ballpark in later years, back in the sixties I guess it was. And we had a team of them and we had a league formed. And I played on the team until I; until I couldn’t play you might say. And then, but I helped others you know, children and boys and had the field opened up to them and I enjoyed working with the players and all. I just enjoyed baseball immensely and still do like to watch it now.
Q: So see what happens, from Fairview playing baseball, too a baseball career for you.
A: Yeah, I enjoyed it.
Q: I catch you lighting up when you was saying baseball.
A: (Laughing) Yeah, that’s one of my main sports.
Q: Well Mr. Chapman, I have thoroughly enjoyed your interview. Is there anything else you would like to tell us before we close the interview?
A: Well, I think I talked long enough and so a, I don’t know if there’s anything. Maybe some more things I could say but a, I thank you so much.
Q: Well before we close I’m going to back up. Do you remember who is responsible for Fairview being there? Do you remember?
A: No, I really don’t know. But I do know, I understand it was whites had it before it was turned it over to blacks. I think maybe the whites, but I’m not for sure but I think maybe, when they did away with the white school they all went to Windsor, I guess they must of had buses cause you know when I was going they had buses going by carrying the whites. The blacks had to walk. That went on well, for about as long as I went to elementary school, we walked.
Q: Well thank you so much for the interview, I have really enjoyed talking to you and reminiscing about Fairview.
A: Yeah, your welcome and I hope I said something that maybe will be interesting to someone.
Q: I’m sure it will.