Interview with Mrs. Loris Gwaltney Gray
September 13, 2003
Interviewed by Sandra H. Lowe
Mrs. Gray went to the Godwin School for the elementary grades, continued to Isle of Wight Training School and worked at the Portsmouth Naval Hospital before becoming a seamstress.
Q: Today is Saturday, September 13, 2003 at Main Street Baptist Church and we are interviewing Mrs. Loris Gwaltney Gray. Mrs. Gray, we’re glad that you were able to come out to see us today and would appreciate it if you could tell us, first of all what area of Isle of Wight did you grow up in?
A: I grew up in an area that was called Modest Neck. That’s in the county, but I used to hear my mother and father say Modest Neck, but I don’t know where it’s written, but it was Modest Neck. That’s like my daddy went to school in Isle of Wight, and that was called Sycamore Crossing, so, you know, years back they had names different from what they do now.
Q: What were the landmarks that might help us know where that area is?
A: The Godwin home, which all of the heads are dead but the grandson is still living there at that house. It’s a big white house directly across the street from where the school was. You walk out of the Godwin house and walk out the yard, and walk right in the school. The school is directly in front of the Godwin’s farmhouse, and it was a big house.
Q: Where would that be from Smithfield?
A: It’s about probably six or seven miles out from Smithfield area going toward Ivor. There was a store that used to be on the corner that was called Pond’s store, p-o-n-d-s, and you would turn left there, and it was not far from Mt. Sinai Baptist Church. It wasn’t too far from Mt. Sinai Baptist Church.
Q: Did you live near the school?
A: Yeah, I had to walk there, and Daddy would not let me walk to school when I was six years old because he thought it was too much for me, and he wasn’t able to carry us to school, so he just thought I was too young to walk that far, and that was like ….I finished school much older than some of my classmates, because Daddy wouldn’t let me walk to school.
Q: So you didn’t start until you were what age? Seven?
A: Somewhere in that area, I tell you whom I was in school with in my class - and you know her - Ida Kearney. Ida Kearney is younger than I am. She’s a little bit younger than I am. I hate to say this about myself, but as Corean Goss says, that I was very, very smart, and I caught on and just flew. And there was another girl by the name of Viola Bailey that was in school with me. She lives in Jersey somewhere now, and Corean had to get us to teach the children because she didn’t know how to teach the young children. She didn’t know…she didn’t know and she’d tell us, “I don’t know what to do.” She’d say, “I want you and Viola to do it.” It was very interesting and later on and when we were in the seventh grade she had a big celebration like children going out of elementary school going in junior high. You know, they would have some type of something for junior high kids. She taught us, well I won’t say she taught us, because everybody didn’t do it…but at one time I recited the “Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears…” I knew every bit of that. I had to do that for graduation, and she taught us. She said Viola and I were so smart that she would bring points out like geometry and show us stuff that were not doing but when we would go to school we would learn to do it higher. When she didn’t come back to school I went to her. My daddy took to me to her mother and father’s house, and that was how I went to high school. It wasn’t high school; it was Isle of Wight County Training School. That what it was called when I was going to school and I stayed with her mother and father and went to high school.
Q: Do you have any sisters or brothers?
A: Everybody’s dead except one sister, and she’s 92. She lives in Newport News, in Denbigh with her son.
Q: Did she attend the same elementary school as you attended?
A: Yeah, she went there and finished there, but then she went to Newport News to Huntington. She’s
92. She lives in Newport News, in Denbigh with her son.
Q: And so you went to the Godwin school?
A: Godwin School - that was the name of it, because it was on Godwin’s land. It was his property, and he just lived right across the street.
Q: When the Godwin school closed, where did the children go? Did they build another school?
A: No. They didn’t build another school. I think what happened - I don’t have to think, I know it. There were several black people and Corean’s father, my daddy, and another man…there were several that evidently they went to some of the officials in the county and told them they were going to buy a bus to send these children to Isle of Wight County schools so they could get an education.
Q: To the Training School?
A: To the training school, and that is one year I rode the bus, and the rest of the time I was at Corean Goss’s mother and father’s house.
Q: So you had Mr. Pretlow and your father, Mr. Gwaltney - what was his first name?
A: His name was Pembroke Gwaltney. But Mr. David Godwin who is the grandfather of this boy that is the maintenance man here. I think they bought land. All the men could not buy land as others could. They didn’t have the funds. Now, I remember my daddy and several others, that I can’t call the names, they put up like a hundred dollars in order for to get that bus. But there were others that gave more, and bought the land and all. It’s been so long I can’t recall it all.
Q: Now what land are you talking about them buying?
A: The land where they build Isle of Wight County Training School. They were helping.
Q: Now the Godwin school, how many rooms were there?
A: Only one room.
Q: What grades were covered?
A: It had to be one through seven. Eight grade started at Isle of Wight County.
Q: So, there was one teacher?
A: One teacher.
Q: Whom do you recall that taught there?
A: Elnora Long….and another one, Thelma Perry. She lived in Blackstone.
Q: And you attended what grades? First through seventh?
A: And eighth too! Seventh and eighth.
Q: At Godwin? I thought after the seventh you went to the Training School.
A: You’re like a lawyer. (laughing) You’re making me hang myself. You’re right - seventh grade, that was graduation.
Q: The school itself, Godwin School, you said that it was on the Godwin property - and they had built it and started the school?
A: Now whether Mr. Godwin built that school or not, I don’t know - but I do know it was his property and it was named after him.
Q: Do you recall anything about what year it was started of when it closed, or anything else about the building itself?
A: No, I don’t know when it started because, see, it was eight of us, and all eight of my sisters and brothers, they went to school there and I wasn’t even born when they started to school there. I’m in the middle of them.
Q: Your birth date is when?
A: August 22, 1918. I think there were four above me. Yes, there were four.
Q: So you would have started there around…?
A: Now I can’t remember that.
Q: Your sisters and brothers were probably…what? Six years in front of you?
A: Most of us were two years between.
Q: When you were going to the Godwin school, did you have any jobs you had to do at home before school?
A: Oh, my soul! We always had chores. We were taught that we were not supposed to be lazy, and we were taught on Saturday that we were supposed to get out clothes out to wear to church on Sunday. We were supposed to do that, and we had to study our lessons.
Q: And on school days, you had to do things around the house?
A: Yeah, we didn’t have houses like it is now, with furnaces and stuff. We had wood, and we had to go outside and get chips. As the wood would be chopped there would be chips down on the ground and we would have to pick up chips and bring in the house so the fire could be started.
Q: Do you recall chores that you did at school?
A: Oh, yeah. We kept the blackboard and the erasers. We would have to always keep the erasers clean and bring them back and put them in the tray. Clean the blackboard couldn’t leave the blackboard with anything on it - it had to be clean. And we had to take the trash out.
Q: What kind of chores did the boys do? Did they any responsibilities like firewood or anything like that?
A: Yeah.
Q: How did the class time start?
A: We would always have a devotion before class. We would have a prayer and we would sing a song. And sometimes - I don’t recall that it was done every day - but we learned the allegiance of the flag and we were taught how to say it with your right hand over your heart.
Q: What subjects do you remember?
A: Reading, writing, arithmetic, language, geography…and geography was done away with I think, when I went to Isle of Wight County Training School. I don’t remember geography then.
Q: What was your favorite?
A: My favorite was English. I made A on my English all the time.
Q: Do you recall any of your text books in elementary school?
A: Yeah, my dictionary and she was famous - if you didn’t know the word, or if you mispronounced the word, you had to go to the dictionary.
Q: Mrs. Garth?
A: All her stuff stood out with me. Mrs. Long and Mrs. Perry - that didn’t stick…maybe it was because I was younger. But Corine used to tell us, “Strive not to equal, but to excel!” I will never forget that. Strive not to equal but to excel…then she would tell to love yourself, and if anybody…like bullies…and if you experienced it…in life there would be…I think we called it jealousy or whatever. She would just tell us to ignore it. And she said, “Love yourself.” And when you see something that is not favorable…and that you think something is…She said if you’ve got your five senses, use it - and walk away from it. Don’t stay there to be a bully. And she would say, “Your tongue…” Let’s see, how did she say it? That’s biblical. It’s somewhere in the Bible. “You tongue is like a two-edged sword. You can harm a many people by the way you talk to them, and you can help a many people by the way that you talk.” That’s what she said that stuck out. And I won’t ever forget she was saying about English about the subjunctive mood and I hadn’t ever heard that, and I had mentioned that I thought I was knowing something. I said, “I don’t know anything about that subjunctive mood.” But as they grew on they found out about what Corine was teaching us.
Q: How long was your school day?
A: I think it was nine o’clock… no, it wasn’t nine o’clock…nine o’clock, eight o’clock. Nine o’clock, I think. I think that’s the way it was.
Q: What do you recall about the lunch hour or the lunch period?
A: When went to lunch everybody ate together. We had to carry our own lunch. My mother had little small tins, things about this large with a little handle on it, and she would fix our lunch every day. And we all ate together and everybody said grace.
Q: So you would have lunch in the building?
A: In your seat.
Q: After that, did you have a recess?
A: Yeah, we had a recess. We would go out there, and she would play ball with us outside.
Q: Do you remember anything else about recess?
A: Sometimes she would tell us, this other girl and I, some little chores that she wanted us to do, and the chores would be like help her with some papers, and we would help her. We got a thrill out of it because we thought we were hot stuff. And she would sing songs, no music, but she would sing songs and I guess she was singing songs that she was taught in her college work and everything.
Q: How would you describe your classroom? What do you remember about the room inside?
A: There would be some famous pictures…I hope I get the names right, the lady that ran the Underground Railroad…
Q: Harriet Tubman?
A: That’s right, Tubman. And Eli Whitney, and Marion Anderson, and Mahalia Jackson.
Q: What else was in the room?
A: Oh, and those famous people there were pictures that would be there would be a space on the wall where they were. And to keep you from forgetting them, she would have you go and stand before the class and tell what you know about them, and if you didn’t know anything about them, you would have to find out.
Q: What else was in there besides your blackboard?
A: The flag, the American flag was in there.
Q: Chairs, and…?
A: There were desks. It was a desk that one person could sit in that had a top to it and a space under there to put your books.
Q: And even the smallest kids, they all had the same kind of desk?
A: Yeah, smaller. The smaller desks.
Q: Your heat was…?
A: Wood.
Q: Oh, wood. So like a potbelly?
A: Potbelly.
Q: What did you do for water?
A: We had water…now how was that? I think that water came from across the street from Mr. Godwin’s house, I think.
Q: In a container or something?
A: Yeah, and Mr. Godwin had a scuppernong grapevine. With scuppernong, and other kinds of grapes, and he would take them and give them to us, either come over to the school or his grandson would bring them to us, and everybody would eat some.
Q: Did you have windows on one side or two sides of the building?
A: Oh yeah, windows were there. Windows were in that building, but not many.
Q: Were they on different sides or all on one side?
A: I think it was one on each side. I think that’s the way it was.
Q: And you used that for your lighting? Did you have anything else?
A: No, there was no electricity in that building.
Q: Did you have any kind of lamps, or that wasn’t needed during the day?
A: If you had to go there at night…let me see, I think they had lanterns, because I can’t remember any electricity in that building. Because I know they had the toilet on the outside.
Q: And where did you hang your coats and things? Was there a separate little room in there, or did you hang them right on the wall?
A: I think it was something on the wall that they had nailed up there with the hooks on it.
Q: What was the discipline and punishment like?
A: Sometimes she’d make you go and stand in the corner, the unruly kids. And of course she drilled that she was going to report them to their father and mother. I never seen her whip anybody. And everybody liked her. And everybody liked Mrs. Perry, too. And a group got together and went to Blackstone to her funeral and I went.
Q: Can you think of any other positive memories of your elementary days--of the teachers, or of your classmates? Anything that you haven’t told me?
A: She would always stress to everybody how to be nice. She didn’t word it like I’m saying it, but that’s what she meant--to be nice, and be respectful. And you know it was so cruel…now that’s not in the school, but it was going to school…the opposite race would have the buses that the county gave them, and when they passed us if it was rainy weather, they would ride through and get all of the mud and dirt all over us. And didn’t anybody tell, like they do now. Some of those opposite race people, not all of them but some of them, and it is the same difference as if they tried to bother you, you were too frightened come home and tell momma and daddy, or tell anybody. People don’t understand that but sometimes children are afraid to admit to the truth. How well I know, because I’ve experienced it myself. And the ones that are past and gone, when I hear it and read about it in the paper when it has happened twenty years ago, I don’t see that. I think if you need to tell it, tell it then instead of waiting twenty years to tell it. Because it has happened, it has happened to me, and I did tell it then and I don’t tell it now. But children will be afraid.
Q: It has been mentioned in other interviews also, they were also--
A: So I’m not by myself.
Q: There were at least five or six interviews with people who have had the same types of experiences, either on the bus or a store or something of that sort. Was there any other negative memory that you recall of your school days?
A: I think what I said were some of the greatest things. And it would be like somebody would save us, she’s coming along about this time, and I’m going to say something to her that has happened. And when you have been taught and you know whether you’ll get a favorable answer or whatnot, you still are afraid.
Q: What other childhood memories do you recall that perhaps weren’t connected with school? Anything else that stands out in your mind during your elementary days?
A: Yeah, some of it stands out…and I couldn’t do anything about it. Some of them would come up, and my mother’s name was Lily, and they’d say, “Well where’s aunt Lillie?” -and that was what all of them said, and that almost killed me…. and I couldn’t say anything to them until I got grown and married, I’m sure. Somebody called me “aunt”?
Q: Could you give me a little sketch of your life from after you went to elementary school and Isle of Wight Training School? What did you do after that?
A: Oh, I got married. My husband and I separated after before (or the four?) children. Everybody was grown except the baby; the baby was two years old. So what I did then, I said “I’ve got to prepare myself so I can make it without asking anybody for any help,” and the Lord was with me. I took a course at I. C. Norcom High School, and I took a course at Virginia State in sewing, and I prepared myself. And I put two hundred hours in at Portsmouth General Hospital, and I got a job there, and I took in sewing at my house. And I prepared myself so that when I retired I would have income. And that is what I did.
Q: Is there anything else you would like to tell us about your life or family?
A: Yeah, yeah. I’d like to say this. In my trials of divorce, my family thought it was cruel. they did not believe in divorces. But what I did, I have a lot of my dad in me--he’s dead and gone, but I knew him, I knew the type of man he was--I put God first, and I have not missed a payment or nothing I was supposed to have paid. By being a true believer in Jesus Christ…he has helped me-and I feel like I can help somebody else when I tell him or her to put God first, and lean not on your own understanding.
Q. Mrs. Gray, thank you for coming out today.