Interview with Rev. James H. Johnson
June 11, 2003
Interviewed by Sandra M. Lowe
Today is Wednesday, June 11th and we are here at Sweet Haven talking with Reverend James H. Johnson who went to Carrollton School. Before we start talking about that school I would like for him to give us some information about some of the other schools he is familiar with, from the two his mother went to and any other information he has on any particular schools.
A. This was a Lodge hall used as a school. The name of the Lodge hall was The Seven Wise Men and St. Mary Women. It was used as a school during the early years of my mother and her sister. How long it was used I do not know. She told me exactly where she went to school. That is all I know about it. Back in the late eighties or early nineties, when she was in school. She told me she got married in 1901 or 1902. The upstairs of the Lodge building was used for lodge meetings and the downstairs was used as the school.
Q. Did she mention who kept the school going or where they might have gotten their funds?
A. I do not know if it was funded by that lodge or the community. She did not say.
Q. Did it later become a barbershop?
A. Haskin was a Seven Wise member and therefore he rented it as a barbershop all his life. When he stopped renting it and died, his wife continued using it as a coat shop for a few years then became sick and an invalid. When this road was put here they tore it down because it was in the way.
Q. Can you give me an idea of where it was?
A. Across from this road here, on this side, near the intersection. There was another one right behind it known as the Good Samaritan Home. This church had settled there for a number of years. It was not a schoolhouse then, it was a large home used as a church.
Q. Was there a golf course or another building – Criss or Cress?
A. Not that I know of, that’s new to me.
Q. What can you tell me about the Carrollton School?
A. The first Carrollton school that I knew of, in the same location where it is now, was a two-room school. It was high enough to be a two-story but was not used as a two-story, just high up. After a number of years, out there where the Carrollton Post Office was, was a white school. They closed that white school and sent the children to Smithfield. They took the material from that school and built the school that you see there now.
Q. Do you recall the name of the white school that was there?
A. Carrollton School.
Q. But at that time, the white students went there and …
A. Yes, there were not black ones. There was another building that was here. The first building that was here was a tall building. A man by the name of Gus Brown purchased that building and moved it across the road and used it as a dwelling house when they built this one they have there now.
Q. And that second one was used with materials from the other school?
A. The white school, yes.
Q. Do you have any idea of dates as to when any of this took place?
A. I started school in 1932 and I went to that school until the 7th grade. The 1st – 3rd was taught by a lady named Kara Jordan Boone. 4th – 7th was taught by lady by the name of Liza White Brown.
Q. I heard that name before.
A. She was the principal. Liza White Brown. When she came here from Portsmouth she finished in Hampton Institute then came here and taught school. She taught before I was born. She taught all my brothers and sisters.
Q. How many brothers and sisters did you have?
A. I had seven brothers and three sisters.
Q. And they all went to that school?
A. They all went to that school.
Q. Were there only two classrooms?
A. Yes, only two classrooms>
Q. Any other smaller rooms in there, cloakroom or storage room.
A. Yes, a storage room in this one but I do not recall a storage room in the old one.
Q. You started there in 1932?
A. Yes
Q. Do you know if, in going through those two buildings, the one that you were in and the one previous…
A. I was in both of them.
Q. By that time were they already being taken care of by the county?
A. Yes.
Q. When you went to school, how far were you from the school at that time?
A. Two or three and a half miles.
Q. You walked?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you live on a farm, have chores?
A. I lived on a farm. I had to milk cows, cut wood, and make fire, wash, and bring water. All those things children had to do. We did the chores at school.
Q. Do you have any particular memories of things that went on during those two-mile walks to school? Anything that Happened that might have been interesting to all?
A. I remember I broke something. I got this leg broken in 1933 here in this schoolhouse. I ran across the road for a ball and a Packard hit me. Broke this leg and fractured my skull – that’s why I’m crazy now.
Q. Once you arrived at school, what were some of the things that went on from the beginning of the day.
A. When you got there boys made the fire in the belly store. The day before you had gone into the woods to get the wood. You would have it ready the next morning. You would then light the wood. We could not get in until the teachers got there. They let us in and we would make the fire. Sometimes the League would have some wood, but when the wood ran out, you would go in anyone’s woods and cut all the wood you wanted and that is what we did.
Q. What do you mean by the League?
A. You call it now PTA Meeting, we called it League.
Q. Do you recall if they did a lot of activities to provide things for the school?
A. Yes, they worked with the teachers and would have things like selling ice cream or lemonade, candies, and balloons. They would have activities during the school year and raise funds.
Q. In those early days of elementary school, do you recall anything that stands out about the subjects that you took?
A. Yes, I failed that year that I had my led broken in February, and school ended in May. I was in the 3rd grade and was retained in the 3rd grade for another year. We fought, we had a good time, and we played together. Those were good days. When you got out of school, you would come home. You had things to do and you went straight home. Everyone walked in those days. We went through the woods. If you did not get home, you would get punished for it. If you did not go to school you would get punished.
Q. Any particular memories of recess?
A. Yes, we had recess in the morning, we had two recesses – one in the morning and one in the afternoon. The one in the morning was ½ hour and the one in the evening was 20 minutes.
Q. What were some of the activities you liked to do?
A. Play ball. There was no football or basketball. You had your own ball. You made it with rags and tied it up. Unless you might have gotten one at Christmas or something like that. Sometimes you could not take it to school, you had to use it at home.
Q. What can you tell us about your lunchtime?
A. In the morning you had lunch – you had to eat within that ½ hour outdoors. If it was raining or bad weather you would eat inside. I had been to school many days that I did not take anything to eat, did not want anything.
Q. By the end of the day you were ready…
A. Oh yes, I was ready to go. She had something to eat for me then.
Q. Did your building have one stove in each classroom?
A. One stove in each classroom. We called it a belly stove.
Q. What was your water supply?
A. Well, this area in here has very poor water system, it has iron and rust in it or it was so cloudy it looked like you could not drink it. At the school there used to be a house right in here and we used to get water from her well. Her well water was good to drink. Some times the teachers would bring their own water. But as a student, you had something like a jug that you would use to get water. There was a well there, yes, but it was no good for drinking.
Q. How would you describe the classroom?
A. The classroom was neat. There was no special place to hang your coat, cloakroom; we called them wraps in that day. You would hang your wraps up here. The new one had a coat closet but the old one did not. In the 1st through the 3rd grade you did not have them.
Q. Do you have an idea, from the time you went to school, or what year it was the next building was available.
A. I’m not sure. I started school in 1932. I went to primer, 1st grade, 2nd grade and 3rd grade. Around ’36. That was the building that Mrs. Bessie Brown lives in now.
Q. What do you recall about discipline and punishment?
A. Well, it was much different than it is today. You did not talk back to teachers. If you did and your parents heard about it you would get a beating, cause both the teachers that were there belonged to old Campbell Church back in the woods. Ms. Carrie Jordan Bowman played the piano. So when you saw her talking to your mother or something at church you knew right then what was up. There was no discipline problem, I can tell you that. One time Mrs. White had to jump on a guy. He would not obey her. I don’t know where he came from, but he was a big guy. I saw her jump on that guy that day and threw him to the floor. She suspended him. I think he went back to where he came from. It was a long time ago, but I can remember it like it was yesterday. That was the only discipline problem that I had ever seen in that school.
Q. What would be some positive memories of your school days, your teachers, students, anything you have not already told us about?
A. I enjoyed spelling. If you got at the end of the line – it was what we called cutting them down in those days. If you missed that day during that week and they had to study, then if you were at the head of the line, when you came back you were at the foot.
Q. That was more incentive for you not to miss school?
A. That’s right. I think I missed only 1 day in two years. Not matter how bad it was, raining, I was not going to miss school. I wanted to be head of my class. When I graduated from the 7th grade I was valedictorian of the class. There were five or six of us graduated that year. It was just a small class. I remember those days. It was fun, you enjoyed going to school, and you enjoyed seeing children. It wasn’t like it was today the children that were down there went to this Sunday school down here. If you had transportation, you could go to Smithfield, but most kids in this area just walked. It was to be with kids in those days. You got a chance to see your friends five days a week, unless you saw them at church. This church wasn’t here (Sweet Haven), this church started in 1935, only church was Campbell’s up there, when it was in the woods, and there was a little store up on 17, and little schoolhouse there, and the children that were down here, went to that Sunday school there, because they the parents had to walk and they built this schoolhouse, in fact they had two, Sugar Hill was further back and down there and one that was beside the white church they got tired of the black folks making noise and they built this schoolhouse right up on this store, until they widened this road, all the children came up here. Later, the adults began to have cars and didn’t have to walk. From that road, all the way to the golf course, that was called Carroll-ton. This area back in here was known as Deep Bottom. When you come back up where that store is and went back over in there, that was known as Baltimore. When you went on down the road you came to Sugar Hill, that goes all the way back down to the water. Then from the other point from that bridge, it was known as Piney Marsh? This was only Carrollton, that’s where they got the name, from where they are building up there now, Eagle Harbor, down to Smith Neck. This part here was Roscoe Neck. This area here only was Carrollton. Now everything from bridge to bridge is known as Carrollton.
Q. That is some new information, very good. When you think of your school days, that period of time in elementary school, do you have any negative memories?
A. When I got hurt and could not go to school or do nothing. Most of the time, we went to school. It didn’t make no different if it was snowing, hail or blow, we went to school. You went to school unless you were sick. I did not want to get sick any day, but I really did not want to get sick on Sunday. If you got sick on Saturday and could not go to Sunday school on Sunday, you didn’t go out. I enjoyed it. That same summer I broke my leg I could not go out and play with other children. I had to stay at home and watch the pot cook. My dad was working in the field and I did not have any choice.
Q. Are there any other early childhood memories you recall that were not connected to school?
A. I was kind of a sick child in those days and I remember my mother sent me to the hospital in Baltimore and to a doctor in Smithfield; there were no black doctors then. I use to have a pain in my stomach. Last time I had it I was sent to Suffolk. It turned out to be appendicitis. That was in “38”. I remember losing one or two friends. A boy in my class got killed right down here when he was 17. Someone threw a bottle and he was cut here and bled to death. Not too long ago I remembered who did it. It was a white guy who did it ______________. This was the second oldest boy…another friend of mine in school, we would pile up on top of each other. This friend, something burst within him and he died. That was a terrible time. He lived in the same neighborhood.
Q. After elementary school, can you give us a sketch of your life and highlights?
A. When I finished elementary school, the first high school they had for blacks was in Riverview. It was called Riverview. That is where my sister went before they built the Isle of Wight County Training School.
Q. Did it go through grade 12?
A. No, everything in Virginia was 11 because you started in primer. Now you start in kindergarten. You went to school 12 years.
Q. What did you do after you went to Isle of Wight Training School?
A. Yes, do you know James Brown, his father and Edna were living down here then. Edna started teaching the same year I went to Isle of Wight County Training School. She had transferred then from down here in Macedonia. She was from a school down there. She came to Isle of Wight because they closed that school up down there. All of us had to go to Isle of Wight Training School. So, I rode with them the first year. You remember those covered up pickup trucks, that’s how we went to school. The next year my mother, she and my brother –they bought a truck and Shirley Boothe was a teacher and I asked him if he would close it in and he said he would. It would be good training for him. Then later, I started driving it. In 1943 I finished high school. I started driving children to school in 1941 or 1942. Taking children down thru here and on down Macedonia and up Battery Park Road into Smithfield and I had my little bus and it was full. A minister-our minister, Rev. Milton, came here in “43”, he went to the board and asked why couldn’t the blacks have a bus to come through here, at that time it wasn’t but one bus coming to Isle of Wight Training School and that one came from Camptown all the way from Windsor-to one school-one bus—everyone else would walk or had their own means of transportation. That’s the way I started and that’s the way I finished. I never rode a school bus in my life to the high school. When they got the bus, I had finished high school. I didn’t have that experience. That’s why I’m just not ---like James Brown Jr.-he was on the School Board for many years about 25 years, I stayed on for 15 years, we could not get together on the consolidated high school. I couldn’t see it, I never had the opportunity to attend basketball games or football games because I had no transportation, no way to get there to the activities, which were being held out there in Smithfield at the Elks Hall, back there where they used to play. I can’t see a consolidated high school-you’ve got at the James River Bridge –how are they going to get there. When they go home in the afternoon, how are they going to get back to the activities at night--their parents are working- he couldn’t see it because he lived in Smithfield, he had that opportunity. Anyway, the bus came on down through Tyne’s Corner to Longview down 10 thru Battery Park, Rescue back to Smithfield-- Rushmere didn’t have no bus either. They had the same transportation I was using--truck. Somebody down there named Mr. Johnson, Clarence, his son, used to come from Surry, driving a bus, used to bring children from Surry because their schools were not accredited, they came to Isle of Wight, which was accredited, so they could go to college. Hampton Institute, unless you were outstanding in something, they wouldn’t take you. The name “Training” was a problem too. James told me when he applied to Howard they saw on his application that he graduated from Isle of Wight Training-they said they didn’t want him because he came from a “Training School”, they thought he had been in some kind of institution, but he got in there anyway, with more explanation. But all them were-all these- Norfolk County, Princess Anne County-all of them were Training schools, in those days. The whole state had 11 grades-two classes behind me started 12th grade, that’s when they started 12 grades everywhere. So, I know, there was a send off for the principal there, he left the same year I did…Katie Hanes, Deborah Ames left the same year I did.We didn’t have a cafeteria there, we had a Home Economics building, and we had a football area though. That’s why I didn’t play football either, it was too rough. I never did play…I tried it but I didn’t succeed. As I look back on my life I wish I did try a little harder, maybe I could have done a little bit of something, then how would I get back for practice- I had to work- my father died when I was thirteen years old, my mother raised me and she had three other children to raise, we didn’t have transportation- just getting to school-we did well. We lived on a farm, I had to milk that cow, cut that wood. This Carrollton area, this whole area we named here, got their living around the James River doing oystering, only one or two Blacks had large farms. After the war, people found jobs at the navy yard, shipyard, then and the plant started flourishing. We had a little farm, about 75-80 acres, nothing you could live off today. Then I went into the army in 1943 right out of high school and went overseas. Stayed over there two years and when I came back I went into the shipyard, where I had worked for two months before going into the army. Got married in 1948.We were married fifty-four years, 6 months and 2 days, and my wife died in December of last year. We had four children, I went back to Norfolk State and got my degree and got called into the ministry in 1975, and I had been at Norfolk State prior to that for two years and then I went back and got my degree. I was living in Norfolk at that time and I moved back to where I am now, and I’ve been here every since.
Q. I thank you so much for a lot of new information that I didn’t have before and I‘m very appreciative of you taking the time to talk with me today, and I hope that you will come and visit with us at the 2007 Schoolhouse Museum, I hope that it will be open in 2006, if we can get everything up and running by that time, and thank you very much Rev. Johnson.