Q: Today is Thursday, June 19th and we are at Holly Grove AME Church and we are talking with Mrs. Vivian Nickerson who went to Central Hill. And first of all, Mrs. Nickerson what was your maiden name when you went to school?
A: My name was Vivian Gray at that time.
Q: Ok, and what area of Isle of Wight did you grow up in?
A: Isle of Wight County in Windsor, Virginia in Isle of Wight County.
Q: Were you in the Central Hill area or?
A: No, No. I was bused to school from Windsor.
Q: Are there any, um, is there a particular place that I might recognize if you named it from where you were? Are there buildings or anything like stores or?
A: Well, I, I was bused not to far from Orbit store. Which is right up the road from Holly Grove AME Church.
Q: Okay, and um, how many, did you have sisters or brothers?
A: I have four sisters and two brothers.
Q: Did any of them attend the same school?
A: Yes, I had two sisters and one brother that attended Central Hill School.
Q: When you went to, um, Central Hill, um, do you know what year that would have been when you started? Were you in the first grade?
A: Yes.
Q: That would have been six years plus your date of birth?
A: It probably would have been 1946. It should have been, um, 1945 but because my birthday came in December, I had to wait until the next school term in order to start school.
Q: Uh-huh. They were very strict about that at one time?
A: Yes, Yes.
Q: When you were at Central Hill, do you recall the grades that were taught there?
A: I was taught the first and must have been taught the first through the third grade, because when I was transferred to Windsor, I believe I started in the fourth grade. So, I must have, um, have been taught grades one through three at Central Hill School.
Q: Ok, and how many classrooms were in that building?
A: It was a two classroom school.
Q: Um, where there any other little rooms or?
A: Not that I remember. I vaguely remember, if my memory serves me correctly, I believe there was a little vestibule to the right before you go out of the door. But I am not sure.
Q: Ok, and, um, so there were two teachers when you attended?
A: Um, I had, I was under supervision of two teachers. I had Mrs. Gladys Chapman as a teacher and right now that is the only teacher I remember having.
Q: Was there another teacher, um, in the building with you?
A: Yes, there were teachers in the other room which were in the higher grades. Her name was Mrs. Marrow. I remember her.
Q: Mrs. Elsie Marrow?
A: Yes.
Q: Ok.
A: And, um, right now that is the only other teacher I remember.
Q: Ok.
A: I did have another teacher that would come once a week whose name was Mr. Bass who taught me Science. But he didn’t come on a daily basis.
Q: Ok.
A: He was a very, very, good teacher.
Q: Aha, I remember him.
A: Is he still alive?
Q: No, no he passed sometime ago.
A: Oh.
Q: Do you recall any experiences, um, that took place when you were in those first three grades with any of the teachers, um, and anything that stands out?
A: Um, well some of the experiences were, was not necessarily educational but it does stand out in my memory.
Q: Aha.
A: Then we use to go to a lady whose name was aunt, um, Mrs. Gladys Chapman referred to her as Aunt Bessie who apparently was her aunt that lived about a city block from the school…and we would go there. She would always send two students, at least two together, to get her some ice, because she was pregnant at that time, and apparently she was craving ice.
Q: Aha.
A: And, um, we use to go to a store that was owned by the Cofers.
Q: Cofers?
A: Yes, and we would get, we use to call it a cake and a drink. (laughter) The sodas were 5cent and, um, 3 cent deposit so actually the soda actually was only 2 cents because if you brought the 3 cents back, you know, that could be towards your next one and that was really you know.
Q: Aha.
A: We looked forward to that at lunch time going to the store to get a cake and a drink. And, um, let me see what else.
Q: And you said that Mrs. Chapman had you to go get ice for her each day?
A: No, not necessarily me. But at least two students. Yeah, two girls or two boys.
Q: Any other experiences you recall off hand?
A: Um, there are some experiences I don’t care to say because they weren’t really pleasant experiences.
Q: Um, ok.
A: I do remember play time was very…you know, we use to play um, um, we would all get in a line and run and then the last one on the end would try to hold on. I can’t remember what it was called, but.
Q: Something like whiplash?
A: Whiplash is right. Aha.
Q: Okay, do you have any information about your school’s history, when it was built or whether the county or church built it?
A: No, I really do not.
Q: Ok.
A: Probably because I really didn’t live in that particular area. And I was and then after all I’ve been gone for twenty three years. I have been out of this area for awhile. I only returned last summer. So, I was only about eighteen or nineteen when I left home. So I suppose the building was demolished during the interim of my leaving and coming back.
Q: And you haven’t heard in conversation that anyone saying anything about, um, Central Hill?
A: No, the only thing I.
Q: Whether it was a county or private school in the beginning?
A: No, I don’t know.
Q: Okay, just trying to pick up…
A: I would say that it would probably have been a county school because of some of the things that took place such as they use to bring us, um, they use to bring juice and peanut butter and different other things that were apparently supplied by the county. So, I figured that would probably make it a county school.
Q: Right.
A: Seeing how they would contribute different things throughout the month. I don’t know if that would have been done if it were private school.
Q: Most of them would have been public schools by the 40’s, but I didn’t know if you heard any of your parents or anyone else say anything about the school being open in the 20’s or by that time?
A: No, no I haven’t.
Q: It would have been a private school?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You said you were bused to Central Hill?
A: Yes, Yes.
Q: You never had to walk?
A: No, I couldn’t have. It was quite a distance.
Q: Did you have any jobs to do around the house before you could go to school?
A: The only thing I would have had to have done, I was too young to make a fire but as time progressed, this didn’t happen during the time at Central Hill School, but we had to make fires in the morning in the kitchen. Uh-huh, you know, in the rooms that weren’t being occupied during the night. But I don’t remember any chores that I would have had to have done at that age.
Q: Ok, do you remember, uh, what hour the school day started? What time and, uh, how it started? Did you have to?
A: Oh, you mean how the school day started?
Q: Aha.
A: Oh, I am sorry, I misunderstood you.
Q: Did you stay outside and then come in?
A: No, no, we came in during the morning. The first thing we had was prayer and devotion. And everyone was told if I remember correctly to have to say it in fact I know we were to say a bible verse.
Q: Aha, got the day started real well?
A: Yes, we did devotion. Devotion was always first.
Q: Do you remember any of the, uh, subjects or the textbooks that you had?
A: Aha, Dick and Jane. (laughter) And I think the next one was More Fun with Dick and Jane. Dick, Jane, Puff, uh, Zeek, ___, the dog’s name was Spot, mother and father.
Q: Aha, anything else stand out?
A: I liked the art section. I like, I liked art. I remember making a uh, we had to draw something. And I remember this particular heading was called Rain in the Face…and it was portraying the Indian tribes. And I drew a picture with rain in the face and I got a hundred.
Q: Ok. Um, do you remember when, uh, how long the school year was?
A: I remember starting in the fall and we got out in the summer. Now exactly what month it was, at that age, I don’t remember.
Q: Ok.
A: But it probably follows suite as it is today. From, you know, from September to June.
Q: Right, uh, what do you remember about recess?
A: Oh, recess was a fun time. Uh, we got a chance to you know, interact with, you know, children. Children, children beget children. We just were glad to be together. And, uh, we would go out, you know, outside and then the bell would ring and we would come back in…when the bell rang for us to come back in.
Q: Did you have recess and lunch together? Or, did you have them separately? Maybe a little recess and then lunch?
A: I believe lunch was, I don’t, I think we had recess around 10:00 or something like that…and then at around 12:00 we had lunch if I remember correctly. Because I remember sometimes I would go out and sit on the front step and then we had lunch later.
Q: Um, how was the school heated?
A: Potbellied stove, pot-bellied stove. (Laughter) One in each room.
Q: Do you remember wood stove not oil?
A: No, It was wood. I can’t say whether or not it was wood or coal, but it was not supplied by gas or oil. It was either wood or coal. It was just an old pot bellied stove with a long black pipe that went into the wall. Each schoolroom had a pot bellied stove to keep and it warm. We were never cold. It was always, you know, adequately heated.
Q: Ok, so you didn’t feel that you had a problem, uh, when you first got to school with having to have a warm up time, uh, well since you didn’t, well you rode the bus. You wouldn’t have had the problems that some kids had when they would walk to school. They were so cold and they had to have, uh?
A: No, we just got off the bus and went into the school. Wait a minute, did we. I think we waited for the bell to ring.
Q: Um hum.
A: You couldn’t just walk into the school because that would have been, that would have been too much disorder. After all the buses would arrive, as close together as they could, that would be a little recess time waiting for all the buses to arrive.
Q: Um hum.
A: And there really weren’t that many buses. (Laughter)
Q: That’s what I was getting ready to ask you, how many?
A: Maybe there was only one or two…and then some of the children of course had to walk to school because they lived right in the vicinity. So that was really a little recess time for me. You know, we could exchange bubble gum and different little things you know. (Laughter) And, uh, it was a fun time.
Q: Any other fun time that you recall?
A: Yes, um, was just getting ready to say it. I should have mentioned it earlier but I wasn’t thinking. A magician came one night, um, Blackburn I think was his name. My mother had gone that night, and I was so proud that my mother came.
Q: Sure.
A: Every child wants their mother to be seen. So, my mom came that night and, uh, was glad that she had come. There is something about your mother going with you, you feel that backup. You know, for the next days you feel that someone knows that you have backup at home. You know, someone that cares for you and loves you…and I was so glad that she had come.
Q: Do you recall any other, uh, programs or activities that were connected with school or anything else you participated in?
A: Right now, right now I can’t recall anything else. Just, um, it was a usual school day the bell would ring and the children would come in and sit down and we would have devotion…and around 9 or 9:30 we would go back into our class with our teacher. Then we would go back out. Then we would have lunch around 12:00. I guess, I don’t remember the exact time.
Q: How would you describe your classroom?
A: It was, um, a suitable environment for the average child to be conducive to learning. We had, um, we had adequate heat. You were comfortable. I don’t remember where we got our water from. Oh, I know there was an old fashioned pump out in the middle of the school yard.
Q: Um hum.
A: And I think at recess time we were allowed to get water. I remember that now. That was one of the fun times. Pumping the water hearing the cough, hearing the pump cough, cough, cough while the water would shoot out.
Q: Um hum.
A: And, um, as I said we were, we had adequate heat, um, had adequate ventilation. We could put the windows up in the spring. Um, we had adequate space to work. And, um it was a pleasant environment.
Q: Did you have electricity at that time?
A: That is a good question. Right now I don’t’ recall. During the hours of daylight, I don’t ever remember having any need for light because the school had a lot of windows if I remember correctly. They probably had it in mind when they built the school. I don’t remember any type of light. Whether lamp light or oil. I know during that time, the only light I knew was lamp light.
Q: Um hum.
A: All the oil lamps, even at the church here, the lamps were oil then.
Q: Sunlight then, most of the schools have a lot of windows?
A: Yea, Yea. They depended on the sunlight. They definitely did. I don’t remember, no I am sure we didn’t have any electrical lights because, uh, I don’t remember any electric lights. No.
Q: Ok, um, did the, uh, where there any other items in the classroom besides your student desk and the teacher desk and the stove?
A: Um, right now, right now I don’t recall anything else. As the time goes on, I might get a flashback. You know. (Laughter) Um, I might get a flashback of something else that was there but right now I don’t recall anything else.
Q: Are there any, uh, other school experiences that you recall that you haven’t spoken of?
A: Um, no. Not anything out of the norm that would stand out in my mind that would cause me to remember. Just the normal, um activities from school like going to school. It was in the norm.
Q: Can you describe discipline and punishment in the classroom?
A: Are you sure you want this?
Q: Um huh.
A: (laughter)
Q: Yes I do. (Laughter)
A: They need to bring it back. We’d have less jails and youth houses.
Q: Uh-huh.
A: Um, the old paddle. I mean the teachers were really stern disciplinarians in those days. And your teacher was really like your second mama. In, in the mix of it there was love. You could feel the love. You know what I mean.
Q: Uh-huh.
A: It wasn’t like a child, um can discern even when you chastise them with love. It really, you know, it’s really mingled with love as opposed to dislike. You know a person loves you even when they chastise you.
Q: Uh-huh.
A: And, uh, not only at Central Hill, even at the other school I went to the paddles were still being used.
Q: Right.
A: And the thing is they would beat you in front of everybody else. So, I guess many times, you know, they wanted you to be an example. And let then know that you better not be like this or this is what you’ll get. I am sure that’s what they had in mind.
Q: Right.
A: But the paddle was the main thing. But they used whips too. I remember when I started into, um, of course we’re not interviewing on Georgie Tyler, but one of my teachers would break her whips Monday morning. She would break her whips first thing. Set them in the corner. (Laughter) But she was a good teacher.
Q: Uh-huh.
A: You know what I mean. She was a good teacher.
Q: And it wasn’t something that was used as…
A: It wasn’t abuse. No. I did not interpret that even as a child as abuse because, uh, like I say, um, it was coupled with love. You could feel it, you know. They wanted you to do it, say the right thing. And as I said, your mother, your teacher to me was your second mother.
Q: Uh-huh.
A: And that’s the way it should be. Because you, look at how many hours you spend with your teacher you know. Well, half the time during those nine months as you do at home, at least a third. You know, you spend a good seven, six, seven hours with your teacher, so.
Q: Did you have any negative memories of your school days, uh, of teachers or students that you would tell us about?
A: No, no, no, none that I would like to.
Q: Ok. Any other early childhood memories that, uh, weren’t necessarily connected with school?
A: Um, in regards to what?
Q: Uh, to the uh, things you enjoyed playing at home, things you did, uh, services at church?
A: Where do I start? All the Children’s Days right here. Oh, the lemonade and cake was endless. And we had, uh, um, I recall um, he was called, in fact he was my cousin, Cousin Henry Butler. He was the most liberal man and he had that endless dipper of lemonade. We had to get in a single file you know, and of course once you got your cup of lemonade you’d go to the back of the line and waited for your next. Trust me, you never stopped getting in the back of the line because you wanted more. (Laughter) We would have lemonade and cake and homemade ice cream. But in those days you had to learn recitation. You didn’t read recitation like they do nowadays. You had to learn five and six stanzas sometimes…and they would, um, my grandmother would put and make us stand up at night and we had to recite those recitations. You had to hold your hands like this and you had to be a lady. And you had to remember those poems. And during the whole time I would say my recitation, I was thinking about ice cream and cake and lemonade. If I could just get through this poem, you know, then I know what’s next. It was really my main thing for me was Children’s Day and also May Day at school. There was nothing like May Day. I think it was the first day of May…and we would put these streamers around the Maypole. Each streamer was a different color and would go round and round and round. I liked that. April Fool’s Day was fun too…and, uh, but Children’s Day was the main day for me.
Q: And that was at the church?
A: Second Sunday in June. Yes. We would dress up in our little organdy dresses. And I remember distinctly, um, my grandmother made me an organdy. And she made me a white iolite dress. In those days, iolite was really, you know, eyelet and organdy was what most of the girls wore…and after she sewed the dress, she put starch on it and hung it n the line so it would be stiff when she ironed it. And the black cow got a hole in my dress. Betsy was our pet cow. (Laughter) She wasn’t hungry but it was just, I think she, it was the starch that she wanted…and when I looked on the line, half of my dress, this was like Saturday almost dusk, dusk dark, Betsy had chewed up half of my dress. Oh, I was so crestfallen. I was so angry with that cow. And she had made a cut out of it, just gnawed with it. I said Oh. So I had to wear my last year’s organdy dress. That was, well, wasn’t fun that day because I was mad at that cow for chewing my dress up. (Laughter) And I remember my Aunt Hattie made me a beautiful, um, dress. I can’t think of the fabric right now, but that was one of the, at the time I was older then. She made me, um, I can’t, it was similar to poplin material. But, I, it was a beautiful pink…and she made a little cap to match it. And, uh, what ages are you looking all the way up through, just childhood?
Q: I am talking about childhood.
A: We use to play softball as I got older in the community. We had a softball team. And we went down somewhere one day and won and the girls wanted to beat us up. We had to run and get in the cars real fast because we won and they wanted to beat us up for winning. (Laughter)
Q: Ok, one last question, um, could you give us a brief autobiographical sketch of some of the highlights of your life? I know you can’t tell us all, but some of the things that really stand out.
A: Are you speaking from age?
Q: From after you left high school, jobs, careers, families?
A: Ok, Ok, alright. After I finished high school, I went to New Jersey in 1959, and then I went to nursing school…and, uh, after I finished school, I got married and had one daughter. Who had, she is deceased now for three years. Uh, she left six children and six grandchildren. And, uh, I joined a church called St. Johns AME Church in Newark, New Jersey. I was with the choir, uh, I used to sing arias for altos with a lot of the masterwork like, um, Hamilton _______ like that. We use to sing the classical music…and as I said, I got married and had one child. But the most important thing in my life is the day that I found the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior. I am saved. And, uh, that was the most gratifying experience that I have ever had, is to become saved and to know the Lord as my savior…and I am yet saved. There are many, many other things I could tell you as I said before. Things will probably come to my mind later on that I should have said this, I should have said that. You know, right now. Oh, the joyful day was the day I saw my child, my baby for the first time. I, I only had one child and that was a day of joy. And, uh, there were many other things as I’ve said, but right now it’s not coming to mind.
Q: Did you have anything else you would like to add?
A: Well, I think this is a great thing that you’re doing because, um, you’re capturing knowledge and experiences from the past. And, uh, as time goes on, we will eventually fade from the scene and you won’t have any first hand information. So, I think you are doing a great thing by gathering this data today and putting it together…and I hope that you’ll have success in it.
Q: Thank you.
A: Ok.
Q: Mrs. Wilkerson, thank you very much.